Hey fellow teachers,I'm sure Matthew is long gone from this forum, so stop wasting your time trying to reason with him. You have too much else to do, and what you do is too important.

Let's face reality, no one can ever possibly understand what it is like to do this job, until they've tried it. I've known a lot of teachers who have come to teaching from a job in the private sector--mostly scientists and technical people, so a pretty bright cross-section. Most of them have not been able to take the pace of the work; the abuse from kids, parents and politicians; the constant accountability for things that are completely outside of our control; the incompetent buffoons that often end up being our bosses; the long hours; the lack of professional freedom and opportunity and (most often) the low pay. They mostly came in with the expectation that they are trading off a lower salary for a less stressful job. Nothing could be further from the truth, in most cases.

I myself am a second-career teacher. Spent the first decade of my adult life as an engineer. When I took my first teaching job 18 years ago, I took a 60% cut in pay and after 18 years of climbing up that oh-so-cushy salary schedule, I still don't make as much as I did at my last engineering job (not even accounting for inflation!).

But at least I got a much better benefits package, right? Wrong. It was pretty much exactly the same as the one I'd had at my last engineering job.

Except for the sweet vacation deal. You know, the one where you have to take your vacation when the school district says, not when you want to. The one where you don't get paid, but you actually pay a couple grand every summer or two to work your butt off on some graduate class so you can renew your license. The one where you bring yourself up to speed on all the new educational initiatives you are expected to implement and learn all the technology you are expected to integrate during the upcoming school year. The one where you try to catch up on raising your kids because during the school year you never see them because you are at work before they get up and come home about bedtime? Yeah, that's pretty awesome, I gotta admit.

Why do I keep doing it? There is not a month goes by that I don't hear from a former student about their research project, their graduation, their new job, their PhD thesis, the patent they just secured, etc. etc. etc. Usually, these come wrapped in a message that says something like, "I just wanted to thank you, Mr. Eckstrom. 'Cause I couldn't have done it without you. You made a huge difference in my life."

I just had to make the decision to ride my bike for yet another year, because if I fix the clutch in my old truck, I can't afford violin lessons for my kids. Those positive strokes from former students don't make choices like that hurt any less, but they do renew my sense that (I know it's schmaltzy...I snort in derision every time I pass the poster in the teacher's lounge, but it's true) I touch the future because I teach.

So hang in there folks. The Matthews of this world are always going to be out there talking about what they do not understand. Never mind Matthew. You've got to get ready for tomorrow, when you will try the eleventh new strategy in the last eleven school days to try to get Matthew's kid to learn something, so he can get a job and someday have enough money to buy a computer and know enough grammar to post an ignorant comment online about how easy teachers have it.

Peace.

Oh my god. She's been working there 8 years, makes 75,000 a year with full benefits I'm sure, gets 2 months off a year and you're making a movie about how hard teachers have it????

I'm sorry, but that is just absurd.

Matthew, just fyi. I'm at work by 7:15 am. I leave school about 5pm on the average and on Fridays even later. I have almost 200 students (who I know by name) in 3 different grades. I need to devise innovative lessons for all three grades and give HW for all them as well. I design tests and when do I grade them and their HW? Not during school hours - at home, at night and on weekends, or they'll never get done. Oh and if you think that I'm just on FB right now. I'm at the Apple store waiting for a class on Connecting the Classroom with the Global Community. It begins at 7pm.
If you factor ALL of the overtime teachers do, the vacation time balances out and is like most working
shlubs like yourself. My friends barely see me all year and when they do, I sometimes bring papers to work on.

Gotta go, class will begin soon and there's LOTS of other teachers going the EXTRA MILE for their students.

Anyone who thinks teachers are overpaid has no idea what being a teacher is like. I work at least 60 hours a week, teaching three classes of high school math. This week, I'm probably going to clock closer to 70, because I gave a test in each of my classes this week, which requires extra prep plus the time spent grading. Even if I only work 60 hours a week (which any teacher can tell you is a pretty conservative estimate), I still work more hours in 10 months than someone with a 40 hour per week job works in a year. And that's not even taking into account the fact that I do indeed work during the summer anyway.
And seriously, the benefits aren't that great. The healthcare is pretty decent, but it's not cheap. The dental and vision coverage is limited, and kind of a hassle to use. There is good job security, for the most part, but it's not an absolute.

Also bear in mind that this is essentially a management job with 143 direct subordinates (at least that's my roster this year). We also can't fire those subordinates for not doing their job, like I would have done when I was in corporate management and as is the option for private/charter schools). Also, there is zero authority in the position; the students don't care about our available consequences and won't bother to excel because they know that the policies of the districts will not allow them to be held back even though they are reading years below grade level in high school. And, often, parents and administrators are more worried about the appearance of success (read test scores, and the ever abstract "grade") than success in fact (e.g. ability to critically reason). If we wait until after high school, it is too late. The habits of mind need to be developed now.

The job benefits are not great, but yes they are there; better than nothing and all that. There are also homeless people, but that doesn't make a bad apartment any better to the person living there. It still costs me $100 to see a doctor and my recent visit to the ER was not covered at all.

The opportunities for promotion, at least if one chooses to stay in the classroom, are non-existent. Indeed in order to get promoted you must leave the classroom; how is this helping the students? Taking the best (supposedly) and forcing them out of the classroom into administrative positions. And don't give too much credence to the authority of a prinicpal. They are bound by the same unreasonable lack of real authority as we are in the classroom. But the pay is much better for the trouble.

Of course it would be nice to be paid more, or at least have the opportunity to see my salary increase at a reasonable rate over the next 20 years or so. But right now, I would live with some classroom authority and being allowed to do what I know is best for teaching students. I am, after all, a teacher; let me teach.

As to those summers off - I don't know a single teacher that doesn't spend time in professional development (I spent three weeks - no extra pay for that), or tweaking lessons, and trying to be better ever year. Shoot, at my school there is a teacher that spends her summers volunteering in rural India teaching English. Also, those summers are not really "off" but are between contract years.

And to those who think this job is some kind of fun house vacation, come to my classroom; come to any classroom. Or better yet, go to school, get certified and join us. We could use the help. Or, is it too much for you?

I work in an afterschool program. I see the teacher in the classroom we use stay late fixing the room putting up vocabulary words, typing up assignments for students, doing all types of work. She stays later than 5:30pm and that's when i leave because the afterschool ends. The class day ends at 2:45pm. Tons of things around the classroom, she bought with her own money. She bought most of the books they have. And all the supplies.

Also teachers do a lot more than just teach your children. They are therapists. They keep your children under control, try to help their behavior and with behavior problems. They are advisers and guidance counselors and it goes on and on.

Teachers do not just stay from the moment school starts to end the day ends. They do plenty of overtime and do not get paid for it like someone at another corporate job would.

Teachers also have families too. They have husbands and wives and children they need to care for. I do not think you are being realistic about how much 65k goes for in a city like New York City.

Honestly, I am sure some are overpaid and some are underpaid, just like in every profession. To me the real crime is that education is undervalued societally.

I agree that at best teachers are fairly paid. Benefits including health insurance, pensions etc must be taken into account. Also a fairly high level of job protection exists. Unfortunately America is entering a (hopefully short) period of economic decline. High job protection and reasonably high salaries (for the number of teachers) are not the norm anymore in many job sectors.

Yeah, nobody in this world is rolling in it like a New Yorker pulling in 75k a year.

I've done my research, I live it everyday and nobody is making a movie about my profession.

Not all master's degrees are created equal. I don't think you can compare a masters in engineering or computer science with one in education.

I have over 20 years of teaching experience. I teach real computer science (not Microsoft word) at a highly regarded school with an international reputation. I know Java, C/C++, and Python, and have significant skill in UNIX operating systems. I have an abundance of programming skill that is worth over 100K in the job market. I don't get 75 large. Matthew, I think you are in minimal touch with reality. Get over yourself.

There was a reason Unions were created. If you have to ask, you'll never know. I'm looking forward to "American Teacher". Thank you for this preview and forum.

You do realize she has a Master's degree right? You can make 50-60k base salary coming out of undergrad if you work for a hedge fund. And that's the conservative estimate. Also, you're not sure she gets "full benefits", you are guessing. Also, as is noted, New York is kind of an exception to pay for teachers, and she is one of the "lucky" ones in New York. Teacher salaries in the Midwest average around 50k.....with a Masters(30k with undergrad, and it doesn't go up that much with experience). That's pretty pathetic considering tuition costs these days. Maybe you should do some research before posting next time.

Ever think about the cost of living? My father lived and taught in the town I grew up in in Northern New Jersey. No teacher can afford to live in that town anymore.

My name is Emily Davis, and I'm helping to do outreach for the film, American Teacher. For anyone who is interested in learning more, please visit our website at www.americanteachermovie.org.

Our team wants to make that everyone who would like to see the film has an opportunity to do so, and that everyone feels included in the conversation surrounding how to value our nation's teachers.

The film will open in New York on Friday, September 30, and if you'd like to join us, tickets are available here: http://www.movietickets.com/h...

For those of you who have time to engage in the conversation, please join us on our Facebook page: www.facebook.com/TeacherSalar...

Please don't hesitate to reach out to our team - emails are on our website. Thanks!

Final thought-

NMFS Commercial Fisheries Observer. 8+ years. Risk of life and limb every day. Work outside in 95+ degrees or, less than 0 degrees. Live in NY with it's cost of living. 75,000 a year? try half that. Where's my movie? Oh yeah, no benefits.

So Matthew, your answer then, if you feel that you are underpaid, is to bring everyone down to your level? My answer is to strengthen unions and bring you and everyone else UP to a living wage. Additionally, I believe that everyone should be provided the benefit of health care: EVERYONE!
You don't say either: do you have an advanced degree or additional hours of graduate study?
BTW, I never made over $50,000 until I was 45 years old and had been teaching for 20 years, and the first year I taught, my daughter qualified for a reduced price school lunch based on the USDA income guidelines.
Final thought: The last time I saw a nationally publicized movie denigrating NMFS Commercial Fisheries Observers (as Waiting for Superman did teachers) was? Oh yeah, there wasn't one.

I haven't seen "American Teacher" yet, but I'm really confused about something about the book "Teachers Have It Easy," which I read when it was new.

The book portrayed a heroic teacher at a badly troubled charter high school here in my city, San Francisco. The teacher worked his heart out for insufficient pay and left to go into real estate. But the book's story was false. It said that the teacher couldn't be paid more than he was because of the contract with the local teachers' union, United Educators of San Francisco.

Well, that's just not true. He worked at a non-union charter school and it could have paid him $10 million a year if it so chose. So the book's premise was inaccurate -- the authors were either deceived or intended to deceive.

So this is a really confusing message. The book tells us that teachers work hard and deserve more respect and more pay -- but then it inaccurately blames the teachers' union for a teacher's low pay.

Anna Phillips, could you please find out what that's about? Why did the book tell this inaccurate story, and were the authors deceived or did they intend to deceive? And since I don't think the movie is playing here yet, can you please fill us in on whether the movie tells the same inaccurate story? What are we to make of this strangely mixed message? Thanks!

Or rather Emily Davis, since you're reading this thread, could YOU respond to my question above?

Guess what? It isn't all about NY teachers. There are thousands of us in other states. I am in NC and after 17 years, I make 41K a year. I haven't had a pay increase in 4 years, I now have to pay for my own health insurance, which, by the way pays less than my husband's(no, I can't get on his due to preexisting conditions). The big reason I plan to retire as soon as possible is simply the lack of respect for my abilities and education. I am now told what to teach(ok with that), how to teach it, when to teach it, and when and how to assess(weeklyreading test for comprehension which by the way I must do during small group time which is supposed to be my time to remediate those in need)and I am absolutely sick of it! All this with no help in the classroom, added to kids who need a social worker, nurse, psychologist and parent whiw at school(me again)spending my own money to provide what my kids need and I hope anyone can see what the pressures are!

Oh and saw Matthew's final note - Risk of life and limb every day. Work outside in 95+ degrees or, less than 0 degrees. Live in NY with it's cost of living. 75,000 a year? try half that. Where's my movie?

I taught for YEARS in a NYC classroom w/o air conditioning. We only rec'd them a few years ago. Can you imagine being in a room w/32 - 5th graders after recess and their bodies are changing and they don't, won't wear deodorant? What about all of the times we jump in-between fights to stop kids from fighting? My school is about 120 years old, can you imagine what it's like in the winter sometimes?

I'm not a teacher, and I will never be convinced to be one. In todays society of student murderers, killers, rapist, and among ather things, feeling a sense of entitlement all by the age of twelve, it has become seriously dangerous to work in the profession. Everytime I hear someone (parent, politician, news caster) downing a teacher, I know that the person talking has no idea what it's like to be exposed to violent, hormonal, energetic, must be my way, students. Politicians, the rich, and the public are all turning on teachers, as if they are the problem in public education, is sickening to me.

Poverty, unemployment, and having no dignity are the main reasons that some children lag behind. Government policy, and cruel intent are the reasons we have what we have in public education. Our young were allowed too much and now, to them, it's more important to play adult games than to see the big picture in terms of theirs and the future of our country.

If anyone believes that making $75,000 dollars is a lot of money to teach students who are disruptive, violent, and headed for self destruction, you need to put yourself in the shoes of teachers and come back saying how "easy" it is to be a good teacher, that you were able to live with treats on your life, a non-supportive school administration, parents who give you a hard time because they say you are not doing what they should be doing to teach their own children.

Parents who sit back and do nothing to concern themselves with their childrens education, politicians who "all of a sudden" care about educating working people's children, and the wealthy whose interest in education for the public is mighty interesting in itself, show no sigh of actual care for students by extending the school day in Chicago or detroit, but they are backward in trying more so to control teachers. If they were really interested in the teaching and the learning of the child, they would allow teachers to teach. You can't teach when your hands are tied, or the state legislate unfair working conditions in an already hostel environment, or when parents are encouraged to tell on the teacher. The teacher-parent relationship most be in order for the teaching process to be successful.

Those of you who are ready to pounce on teachers, ought to think about what a teacher must face simply be looking at the job you did with your own children. Did you do a good job raising a responsible boy or girl, or did you allow a menace to invade and disrupt the educationa process. If you can't handel 2, 5, or even 7 children at home, imagine 29, 32, or 39 and more students with different character types. You'd be lucky to have at least 7 or 9 students interested enough to learn. Think about that.

Well said David Eckstrom!! Thank you!!

Yeah Matthew - that great education you received from that underpaid teacher is probably why your comment is so ignorant. The teacher I know, my sister, has worked in N.C. for over 9 years and doesn't make 39,000.00 a year and won't be seeing that kind of a pay anytime, even the distance future... As a matter of fact, up until the last 3 years, after living under Republican spending and the collapse of "their" economy, I made more than my sister as a waitress working 20 hours a week. So suck it! And anyone else, who thinks teachers are over paid! Do you know what they do? They babysit your kids for up to 8 hours a day! Oh and never mind that they also teach them what you are to busy to do!

Despite what some may think are exorbitant salaries, there are many hours that are not accounted for in our salaries. For example, as a middle school English teacher with 96 students, I must grade their monthly essays. It takes me at least 25 hours monthly outside of the work day to do this. Add to this arranging field trips, calling and meeting with parents on my lunch period (or before or after school), giving extra help, and planning curriculum and lessons, my days are never less than 13 hours. I attend meetings and PD on my preps, grade other work throughout the week, give 96 students 1:1 conferences while the others are working after my lesson. I earn every penny of my salary. People often criticize our "two months off" as if we created the system. Most teachers plan for the following year and attend college classes and workshops in between some well earned down time. If the responders think teaching is so cushy, I suggest you earn your BA, MS, 30 credits above your master's, take 4 licensing exams and join us!

The argument of teacher's salaries has gone on too long. If we respected the profession, we would back it with a proper corresponding salary. These are the people we entrust to educate our children. Do we really want to have glorified babysitters? What kind of future can we expect for our country? Do we, perhaps make the salary decision based on jealousy and resentment that teachers get a summer off? And do they really get the summer off? Are you aware the most teachers have much work yet to do, long after school closes?
And why do we compare a masters education to any other masters, say in engineering? Those in education are under incredible scrutiny, which, would not be so terrible, if they were paid a proper salary. When that day occurs, and when parents join forces with teachers, then we will be able to select the very finest of educators. Then our children will benefit from thoughtful, well educated, and caring adults.

I think that it is important to keep in mind that everyone, no matter how over or underpaid they may be, has been influenced by a teacher in someway. There is no dollar amount that can be assigned to the role that a teacher plays in the life of a student. People are quick to forget about the teachers in their lives that cared for them, that spent time away from their families to stay late at work, that spent their own money on supplies and all those other special things that teachers do to make their students fell supported and respected. The next time that you want to start spewing at the mouth about how teachers make too much for the job they do, think about a teacher who dedicated some of their life to you. Think about what a teacher gave to help you learn and grow.

I am a fee-for-service (hourly) special education itinerant teacher in New York and while my "salary" looks good on paper, I cannot make money unless I service a student. I do not get covered on summer vacations, holidays and have to make up the days I am out or my student is out but only during allotted times. I have no health or life insurance because I cannot afford it and my company does not provide it. You can forget savings or a 401K. Currently I have one student whose parents will keep him home even if it's raining outside. I am hoping to get more cases but I have to wait for my agency to assign me cases. A non-compete clause keeps me from working for other companies or getting my own students. I do not know how I am going to make November's rent. I wish I was in a job where I made $75,000/year and a union and benefits but those jobs are hard to get and you usually have to be working for quite a while to get them. I have been at this for almost 4 years and I swear if something else comes up in another profession I am taking it.

Yes they are underpaid, specially the real dedicated teachers. From morning until afternoon, they are mother and father to 20 or 30 students in one classroom. Molding them to learn manners, read, write, share with other, be a better person in the future...well the list is longer. Some kids are very hard to deal with, and who take care of them all those hours in school? Teachers...of course they deserve a higher salary! some parents love for the kids to be in school so they don't have to deal with them..ahah!So the problems go to the ...Teachers!

No one has a clue to how much work a teacher puts in on a daily basis. You always have to come up with ideas to keep children motivated and encouraged. Work is always taken home and time from our loved ones. There is not enough pay to replace that.

Every teacher I know has to have a part time and/pr summer job to make ends meet...

It all depends. Ask a housewife if she is overpaid, and then step into her shoes and determine the answer for your self. I've never tried to be a housewife, but I bet I wouldn't want the job under any circumstances, ie if I performed the job like a good housewife. However, I suppose being a poor house wife might not be worth much, and might do more harm than good. I think it depends on the quality of the teacher, just as it would depend on the quality of the housewife. Both jobs done exceedingly would certainly deserve more compensation they are getting now, while the mediocre teacher or housewife might not even deserve a job. So teachers and housewives are a difficult judgement call, and this discussion will never reach a satisfying conclusion, just as the WILL itself will never achieve satisfaction.