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There is uproar in parts of Queens where the city may require all children -- starting with current third graders in G&T programs, to "apply" for middle school programs, including the G&T Academy at P.S. 122 in District 30. This would mean students in the early grades at P.S. 150Q and P.S. 122Q would no longer be guaranteed entry to the academy at P.S. 122Q. But there are many families who want access to seats at the well-regarded K-8 school, regardless of whether their children are in the gifted program.
What do you think about re-testing kids who were told they had a middle school seat guaranteed when they started at the school in kindergarten? Should the city re-test all G&T kids before allowing them to move on to another school?
Since the city has added elementary school g&t seats, they should add middle school g&t programs to accommodate the children that are in these programs without testing. Instead they are trying to funnel the students that are already in the program to eliminate the need for additional g&t programs.
In addition, changing the rules at this point is unacceptable. It is a disaster for all the families who planned on the current system and made major decisions in their and their children's lives based on it.
Even worse is the suggestion of an "enriched" program. G&T students need g&t seats. It would be catastrophic to put g&t students in classes with gen ed students who are a full year behind in their studies. It will grind to a halt the education of these g&t students who we have been grooming for the last 6 years to be leaders in our community and our country. And it will not be fair to the gen ed students either.
I am posting the comment of Scott McGarvey, a parent just like i am at PS 166 Q:
The Academy at 122 appears to be a highly desirable sought after school. K-8 seamless education has been a proven model in the DOE's own studies as well as the educational literature over the last decade. Why won't the DOE use this as an opportunity to showcase one of its best successes and do it again with more G&T seats and G&T middle school teachers when space, principal, community education council, and parents support it?
The DOE has grown District and Citywide G&T programs and reached out to provide for the special needs of these students. As students grow, there ought to be both more access points to gifted programs and more seats available to reach students when they are best suited. The program at 122 for middle school appears to be highly desirable mix of students competing for entry in 6th grade and students entering by virtue of their successful and vigorous ongoing participation in an advanced/enriched elementary G&T program. The DOE's proposal actually weakens the program and the school rather than strengthening the educational opportunities for the district, maintaining K-8 G&T education and increasing entry points at for students in general education. (In his own statement tonight -- contradicting the DOE's Spokesman above that suggests the point of testing everyone was to permit equity in entry criteria, Sandy Ferguson Director of Enrollment at the DOE said at CDEC meeting "The G&T students at PS122 and 150 will test into the Academy anyway" Why is there so much resistance at the DOE to expanding middle school G&T in district 30? Do they think their kids aren't up for it? or that competing G&T middle schools would disenfranchise the general public?
I was on the first group of parents that entered the PS 166 Q when my daughter was called to participate at their G&T program there. My first choice was PS 150, second choice PS122. We were told that no space were available in either school and that my third choice, PS 111 was closing, due to serious behavioral issues. I was called at home and asked if i would like to have my child participating on the new program in town, PS 166. We accepted it. At the first meeting with teachers, administration, parents, and Mr. Michael Adin, then representative of the G&T Program from the DOE told us that YES, WE WOULD GO DIRECTLY TO THE ACADEMY AT PS 122, IF OUR KIDS WERE TO GRADUATE THE NEXT DAY. He said that he could not tell what would happen in five years, but that yes, we were guaranteed a program, if nothing changed and the norm was to have kids from PS 150 to enter the academy along the ones at PS 122. So, the notion that we were not promissed the same as everyone else is WRONG. PS 166 children three years ago were promised a seat at the Middle School, anything else is a misconception. We are all in the same situation, my child was in charter school and we also changed our lives to make sure that she has a great school to attend. This is one issue only, children at District 30 need Middle School seats on the G&T program right now, with teachers trained for it, period.
Could you tell me how did you pick 150 over 122. Would love to have your insight
I think that it's as simple as the phrase "kids who were told they had a middle school seat guaranteed..." If there is to be a shift in policy, it HAS to be announced in advance of parents' school selection. It's either a guarantee or it's not, and promises must be honored, given that life-choices have been made BECAUSE of those promises.
Faced with "too many" qualified and prepared kids, the DOE should be working to develop appropriate placements for all of them, not pitting them against each other in a competition to see which ones will get the appropriate education they are entitled to by law, and which ones will be left out.
All parents and guardians in District 30 whose children attend the G&T programs have been given the same information: PS150 and PS122 are K-8 programs. Hundreds of families made their decisions, arranged their lives, and selected these schools—or chosen to go elsewhere—based on that information. I adamantly oppose the proposal to change the policy, which comes without consultation with members of these school communities and which ends this agreement. I support the creation of more G&T middle school classes in District 30, but not at the expense of this policy.
The DOE made promises to the students of PS 122 and PS 150 and they have to follow through with them. These kids will have been tested every day of their careers as they excelled in 6 years of G&T classes. No test can compete with that amount of information about a student's skills and abilities. If the DOE wants to increase access to G&T among general ed students, by all means they should, but not at the expense of their promises and at the expense of PS 122 and PS 150 students. Instead, they should open more G&T seats elsewhere if there is no more room at PS 122.
Absolutely NOT. A guarantee was made that my 122 children would matriculate into the middle school academy at 122. I made a choice based on that guarantee and it specifically included the fact that I wouldn't have to move her for middle school.
I have many other reasons why the answer is NO:
First, more tests completely stifle the "gifted and talented" learning that is supposed to be happening in these classrooms. Now imagine a fifth grade test for the middle school. I forecast anxiety, classroom time dedicated to preparing for it and a general change in the atmosphere--vying for seats and pressure because of it. That prep time comes at a precious price. I don't want a child who only knows how to take a test. That isn't why I put my daughter into the G&T at 122.
Second, a one shot test should not have the ability to oust a child from the academy who has worked for 6 years, maintained excellent grades and behavior since kindergarten. Kids have bad days. What if that test day is one of them? You mean to tell me that despite their academic record they would get booted? Who said that a test is a good proxy of their "giftedness" when there is an academic record to go on. In kindergarten really no one has anything other than the test, but for middle school these kids will have been put to the challenge and either risen or not. The school has a probationary process for those kids who are not meeting the expectations.
Third, let's not ignore the elephant in the room - there was an increase in the number of children testing into the G&T classes and there are less resources as a result of our poor economy. The inevitable is that there are less seats in the middle school than children who will want to fill them. BUT the solution is not a test that cuts out children who were already promised something - that's just not right. The right answer is to open up an excellent, competitive G&T middle school nearby with G&T certified teachers. That way all of the G&T kids can be treated fairly across the board. A test reduces the number of seats depending on the cutoff. MORE SEATS means a better education for all of the children whose parents made their choice based on an expectation. I am more than positive that there are enough parents that would be willing to help make this happen.
Finally, this is about the children!! What are they getting from this decision? How is this decision benefitting any of them? It isn't. A gifted & talented education should be enriching and challenging. Open up more EQUAL seats. Don't try to give parents and children the short end of the stick, the DOE must do better.
The DOE in 2009 under former chancellor did an outreach for g&t students, and promised to create more gifted and talented programs throughout the city. Since then there have been record breaking numbers of kids entering into g&t programs. At the time the former chancellor promised to open more g&t programs but instead what has happened is that they have done away with the Office of Gifted and Talented. Now the DOE doesn't know what to do with the g & t students entering middle school because there are not enough seats. This is due to their outreach. So now they have a responsibility to create a new g&t middle school program with certified g&t instructors not to try and filter out students for the available seats.
If money is an issue then why is a new building being so that P.S. 78 can expand to become a K-8 program (they are K-5 now) and yet the proposals for the Queens city wide STEM program at P.S. 85 that has been promised expansion in 2009, keep getting turned down?
If the policy is outdated then have the students at NEST, Anderson, TAG Young Scholars, and Brooklyn School of Inquiry test also... they are all K-8 programs... Tell those parents that they will also have to test at 5th grade to open up spots for our kids. I would like to see what would happen then
Thank you. The more I think about this it just seems silly. The DOE already offered a new program @ IS 126 in physical space that is available now. The kids in the newer G & T programs have to go to middle school somewhere. This new program could accomodate their needs as well as an increased demand for G & T middle school seats for current gen ed students. How does making the new program @ 126 a G & T program use any more resources than what they've already proposed?
What happens when you can’t trust what your city says? Even now if you Google the District 30 middle school application for 2012-2013 students it states “The Gifted & Talented (G&T) program at Mamie Fay (P.S. 122) is a K-8 program in which students currently enrolled in the G&T program at P.S. 150 and P.S. 122 continue into the middle school program starting grade 6.” K-3rd grade students are “currently enrolled”. Should the DOE be allowed to change any program retroactively? There is no fine print here, like there is in the newest G&T handbook where it states that “G&T Programs are subject to change”. Is there some bias against the fact that a Queens district K-8 program was ranked higher than the city-wide programs on the 2011-12 middle school state assessments? Why is this only for District 30 or is it a bias against district schools vs. city-wide who are allowed to keep their K-8 programs. The students in this program scored at the same level as the city programs and were placed there by lottery. The DOE should be proud that this district has the top middle school program in the state. As other parents have stated, this should be the model for schools across the city and a program that the DOE should be proud of. Follow the model. Make the same program for all District 30 G&T schools. Most of all, keep your word – we believed you when you provided this opportunity for our children. It’s criminal to take it away.
Re-testing should definitely not occur when it violates a prior agreement, as in the case of PS150q and PS122 students. Parents work hard to make informed decisions. I spent last winter and spring visiting every charter school, citywide and district G&T program that was an option for our 5-year-old daughter. We made our decision when ranking G&T programs and when forfeiting a charter seat that was offered based on the policy that my daughter would be assured a G&T program with G&T certified teachers through 8th grade. It is absolutely unacceptable to change that policy now. IF it is to be changed, parents must have that information in a timely manner BEFORE they make decisions.
The makers of the OLSAT and the NNV tell anyone who asks that their tests are not designed for kids younger than about 8 years old; the results are just not stable enough to indicate real differences, rather than coaching.
By placing kids into G&T in kindergarten the City does the kids and itself a dis-service, one that is seen in the G&T schools in about 3rd grade. When some of the supposedly-99th percentile kids realize they aren't.
In Mesa, AZ kids attend local elementary until 4th grade. If the kids qualify then, and want to move they can. Seems so much more sane than what we do.
Of course tradition being what it is, I expect we'll never change our practice and when a district like Queens tried to act rationally and in the best interests of the kids, the community will cry 'foul'
If the children are not thriving in NYC G&T programs, they are moved. In my son's kindergarten class, they began with 1st grade curriculum and the children are doing fabulously. Had they been in a GenEd class, they would have been doing remedial work, been bored, and potentially become behavior problems. Most of the children who test in at the kindergarten level do very well throughout their G&T elementary education.
"Most of the children who test in at the kindergarten level do very well throughout their G&T elementary education."
That's quite a claim. What data are you relying on to make that statement?
Thanks for your comments. A spokeswoman at the Department of Education has issued the following statement:
“To create a more equitable admissions process, we are proposing that all District 30 fifth graders have the opportunity to apply for admission through the same selection criteria for the selective programs at PS/IS 122.”
The DOE said the current policy guaranteeing P.S. 150 students seats in the G&T middle school program is outdated. Now that there are more elementary schools in District 30 with G&T programs, the department says all students should have to re-test for the available sixth grade seats at PS/IS 122.
The proposed policy change would impact P.S. 150 students currently enrolled in grades K-3, the DOE said.
If a policy is deemed outdated, it is patently unfair to retroactively enforce that policy on families who made life decisions (homes, jobs, school selection) based on the previous policy. Any new policy must begin with the students who have yet to take the G&T test, have yet to rank schools, and have yet to accept seats.
The guaranteeing seats policy would not be 'outdated' if the DOE created middle school seats to match the elementary seats created. If you created additional G&T classes, which clearly this district has the capacity to fill, you clearly need to create G&T middle schools to match them. You shouldn't penalize the highly successful programs in place. If you're going to dismantle K-8 here, you need to do it everywhere otherwise there is no equity.
My "You" above refers to the DOE. Thank you Patricia by the way for getting the DOE statement so we know their thoughts regarding the issue.
This is crazy! The DOE made a promise & commitment to the families @ 122 & 150 & that promise has to be kept. It seems only sensible to open more g & t middle school seats equivalent to the # of seats open in elementary school. If the DOE insists on 5th grade testing, that should only apply to future students - not those currently enrolled in the program. Furthermore, if the DOE is going to implement this policy they have to make that clear this year. They must convey the new 5th grade testing policy to prospective kindergarten families making decisions & visiting schools this spring. Anything less would be to perpetuate a lie.
The DOE has left out a very important part of their proposal in their comment above. As they are proposing that everyone test in to the Academy for 6th grade, they have already offered to create an "enriched" program in under-utilized space @ IS126. Make that a G & T program modeled after the Academy and everyone will be happy. It will create enough seats for the newer G & T programs in District 30 & leave open seats @ the Academy for children not currently enrolled in a G & T program to test into. They have the space. They have already offered to create a new program. Make it a G & T program. Problem solved!
Just when I thought this change could not be more unfair, I re-read the DOE statement above. It says that this change would only affect the students @ 150. Are you kidding? For years they have been treated as a K - 8 program just like 122. How can you single them out now?
Based on the CEC meeting last night, this was not the case; the proposed changes would affect all District 30 schools. I wonder if it was either mis-communicated or mis-written?
Just to clarify, here is what we were told by the D.O.E.
1) Currently, district wide G&T programs exist at four elementary schools in D30. Only one middle school G&T program exists in D30 at PS/IS 122 since it’s a K-8.
2) Currently, students from PS 150 have priority to attend the middle school G&T program at PS/IS 122 without having to re-test. This legacy program was established years ago before additional elementary school G&T programs opened in the District. G&T students enrolled at PS 85 and 166 are required to re-test, while the PS 150 students are granted automatic entry to PS/IS 122 in the 6th grade.
3) To create "a more equitable admissions process" DOE wants a policy change where all students would now have to re-test for the available 6th grade seats at PS/IS 122. The policy change would impact students currently enrolled in grades K-3. Current 4th and 5th grade students at PS 150 would maintain priority to attend G&T at PS/IS 122, but students enrolled in K-3 would have to apply for a 6th grade seat at 122 in the same manner as students attending other district G&T programs.
Hope that helps
Still unclear. When you say "all" students have to retest, you're talking about all students in District 30, correct? From 122, 166, 150, and 85. The way you're phrasing it sounds like you're only talking about 150.
I think they mean "all" once they include these K-3 students at PS 150, because kids at PS 85 and 166 are already required to retest.
Right, but you're excluding 122. According to the meeting last night, it's ALL 5th graders, including those at 122. Just trying to ascertain if they told you something different than us.
Three years ago when my daughter entered the very first class at the G&T at PS 166, we were told that IF MIDDLE SCHOOL STARTED TOMORROW OUR CHILDREN WOULD GO DIRECTLY TO THE ACADEMY AT PS 122. Last year the parents were told otherwise and they started a petition for the middle school seats. PS 85 had the same issue, their first class to graduate is on 4th grade. And PS 166 is on its 3rd grade. Our two schools started the petition because there were different information on different grades done by the DOE. My daughter is at the very first class at PS 166, we were guaranteed a seat at the Middle School academy. Parents after us were told otherwise. This is plain WRONG. We need G&T seats for every kid in district 30, with trained teachers, no retesting at all.
Beth
The program at PS 85 is the STEM Academy- the only citywide program in Queens and one of 5 in the whole city. When the DOE started the STEM program, they promised parents that it would be a K-8 program like the other four citywide g&t programs. The STEM program now has students In the fourth grade and we are in negotiations with the DOE over how they will fulfill their middle school promise to us. But, because PS 85 is not a district G&T ( except for this year's fifth grade class because of a historical anomaly) it is a red herring to cite PS85 as part of the district 30 g&t crunch. We are an additional group of g&t students with a separate but related set of concerns. All of these children need appropriate g&t placements!
I would just like to point out that there are many children in PS 166 who scored into citywide. In fact, many of them scored into the 99th percentile. I would also like to note that many of the current students in PS 150 and PS 122 are there under the former sibling policy where they only needed to score a 90 to get in. I recognize that those were the rules last year & that all of the siblings have been promised a middle school seat in 122 and that promise must be kept. However, can the DOE please recognize that this former policy limited the # of available seats to children who scored very well on the exam by their own merit and new G & T middle school seats should be created for them.
this is a perfect description of what is going on in district 30 & I agree with everything in this article, especially about making new seats @ IS 126 G & T http://www.dnainfo.com/new-yo... I hope the link works.
Yes to retesting. There will always be tests in education and it's better to have experiences with it than not. If the test were based on process and higher order thinking, then truly gifted children would likely continue to excel. It need not be based on curriculum content. Furthermore, I think everyone should take a peek at the research. Experts in gifted education recommend that testing begin when the children are about 8 years old. 4 year olds taking this test to determine their entire educational placement? That is insane! It's not unheard of for 4year olds to have a bad day and then not be considered gifted. And one more thing from my soap box, gifted ness isn't necessarily a fixed trait. Children who are advanced academically in Kindergarten as compared to same age peers may not always be as the years go on and those peers start to catch up. Just saying!
Children in G&T programs are tested and assessed throughout each year. If they are not able to keep up, they are asked to leave the program. There should be multiple entry points for kids in GenEd to join the program as well. However, if they make all the G&T kids test and don't add seats, the GenEd kids will STILL be at a disadvantage because they'll be competing for seats against kids who have been doing advanced work for 6 years. It's simple. Let the kids who are *succeeding* in a G&T program continue. Open more seats for GenEd kids to enter the program.
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